Nanao Sakaki

Blue Mountain, Green Water, This Is My Home
An Interview with Nanao Sakaki

Their wisdom was not gained through the study of texts but through direct experience of nature in the raw and a fearless acceptance of life as it is. Consistently exploring new paths, some hermits wandered freely to the sacred mountains to nourish the five orbs (organs) by absorbing the cloud qi at dawn, and to bathe in hot springs, cleansing and invigorating the body.

This life of wandering and seclusion became known as “cloud wandering”. Most hermits left no record of their life or a path to follow. A few however did leave poems and songs etched on cave walls or hidden in rock crevices. These poems give a glimpse of the life they led, like those of Han Shan (Cold Mountain) or Chen Tuan, the hermit of Hua Shan.

It could be assumed that you would only meet these characters if you were travelling in ancient China, but this is not the case. Over the last thirty years I have had the good fortune to meet and spend time with a few of these people, both in China and in the West. One of them is the Japanese poet, Nanao Sakaki, who has spent most of his life as a homeless wanderer with few possessions.

Though never wearing the hermit’s patched robe, Nanao has lived in caves in the high mountains and tasted a freedom that only a few will ever know. He says, “I’m never lost in forest or town because I never care where I am”, which is a true expression of cloud wandering wu wei. He once responded to a question about lineage from the Tibetan lama Chogyam Trungpa saying, “I need no lineage. I am just a desert rat!” Nevertheless, Nanao walks a path that carries a lineage that has no name but is as much a part of the spirit of Daoism as temple ritual.

In 1993 I had the good fortune to travel with him through Wales and Ireland. In the day we walked the valleys and mountains and at night, around the fire, Nanao was our guide to the constellations. This interview took place at that time. Nanao is now in his eighties and I feel he can justifiably be called the Wandering Immortal!

Shi Jing

The Interview

The interview begins with Nanao taking a green bandana from his head with white Chinese calligraphy on it and laying it on a table.

Nanao: These ancient Chinese characters for mountain and water, you can easily see what they mean. [He points to the characters for mountain and water.] So this says “Blue mountain, green water, this is my home.” It’s easy to understand. These Chinese characters are three thousand years old. Great isn’t it!

Shi Jing: We’d very much like to hear of your early influences.

Nanao: Okay. A good place to start is my poem “Autobiography”.

Autobiography

Born of a humble & poor family,
Received minimum education,
Learnt how to live by himself at fourteen,
Survived storms, one after another:
Bullets, starvation & concrete wastelands.

A day’s fare – a cup of brown rice, vegetables,
Small fish, a little water, & a lot of wind.
Delighted by children & women.
Sharing beads of sweat with farmers,
Fishermen, carpenters & blacksmiths,
Paying no attention to soap, shampoo.
Toilet paper & newspapers.

Now & again
Loves to suck the nectar of honeysuckle,
To flutter with dragonflies & butterflies,
To chatter with winter wrens.
To sing songs with coyotes,
To swim with humpback whales,
And to hug rocks in which dinosaurs sleep.

Feels at home in Alaskan glaciers,
Mexican desert, virgin forests of Tasmania,
Valley of Danube, grasslands of Mongolia,
Volcanoes in Hokkaido & Okinawan coral reefs.

And – one sunny summer morning
He will disappear quietly on foot
Leaving no shadow behind.

I just had minimal education. I left school at 14, my family was poor so I must support by myself. So it’s good because I could see society from the bottom. I feel that if I was born in high society, I wouldn’t have experienced so much. I know many upper class people in Japan. They still think this is the medieval age, with the emperor and Shogunate – they haven’t changed.

Soon the war started so I had to go into the Japanese navy for two years. Probably the war was a good education for me. I saw the Nagasaki bomb like a big mushroom cloud  – terrifying – and after the Hiroshima bombing I went there too. It smelt so terrible. And I was almost killed many times by the American fighter planes because I was radar man at a Japanese Kamikaze air base. When the war ended I had many jobs but I was not happy just to work. I couldn’t find any vision. To work for money, just to eat, I hated that! Japan was going industrial and I was going in the other direction.

I was also looking at African primitive art, Australian aborigine paintings, Chinese painting and poetry, ancient Chinese bronze art. At the same time I was studying astronomy and botany, then I began translating. My first translation was by an Australian, “Ancient Voyagers in the Pacific”, and I just translated for myself, not for publishing. By the early sixties I was writing poems and short stories in English.

Shi Jing: When did you first meet the poet Gary Snyder?

Nanao: In the early sixties many American beatniks came through Kyoto from New York or San Francisco, bringing news about Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and Gary Snyder. I once met an American student there and he started talking about Zen Buddhism. Over an hour he spoke and spoke and at the end I asked him “Do you take Zen practice?” and he said “No.” Okay. So I wrote:

If you have time to chatter
Read books
If you have time to read
Walk into mountain, desert and ocean
If you have time to walk
Sing songs and dance
If you have time to dance
Sit quietly, you Happy Lucky Idiot

My first English poem, this one. Then I met Gary Snyder and Allen Ginsberg in Kyoto. I showed them this poem and they said ‘Oh. Here is a great poet!’ So I must be poet after that, no more escaping. That’s terrible karma!

Shi Jing: So you were influenced by them as they were influenced by you?

Nanao: Yeah both sides, sure.

Shi Jing: Do you feel any influence from Shinto?

Nanao: Shinto is very strange. It’s not a religion any more – a Shinto priest is just like the curator of a museum. No spiritual relationship with people. Most Japanese go to a shrine and after that they go to Buddhist temple, so it’s just a social custom, no reality. Originally Shinto shrines were mountains, trees, special places. These places were their god and before they go they clean up their body with cold water. They go to bow and pray and no priest was needed. Slowly the government developed a kind of system to control people so Shinto is almost part of the government now and Buddhism is the same. Buddhism controlled Japanese people from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century completely. And you couldn’t escape it. Now it’s freer. Young people never go to the temples. Buddhism is struggling in Japan now and some sects are almost finished.

Shi Jing: What about the Yamabushi mountain monks?

Nanao: Yamabushi are a mixture of Shamanism, Shintoism and Buddhism

Shi Jing: They seem a bit like Daoists.

Nanao: Yeah, their mountain temples are kind of like hermitages. They like to commune with the spirit of the mountain. I don’t know too much – I haven’t had much contact with this group.

Shi Jing: Do you meditate?

Nanao: Yes sometimes. If it’s good situation. Sometimes even on an airplane I sit in the lotus position if I have space. It’s good place.

Shi Jing: Do you focus on the hara [dantian]?

Nanao: Not specially. Just sit natural.

Shi Jing: Has Daoism influenced you at all?

Nanao: Yes, sure. Laozi and Zhuangzi are good friends of mine!

Shi Jing: Did you meet any Daoists when you were in China?

Nanao: No. It was just after the Cultural Revolution so I didn’t meet any.

Shi Jing: So maybe you identify with the hermit tradition?

Nanao: Yes sure. I was hermit in American South West living in many caves. If you go there several places they now call “Nanao’s cave” because I stay three months or a whole winter. One is in the high Rockies, over nine thousand feet high, but inside very warm so if you have candle it’s enough to keep warm. But outside thirty, forty below zero. And you don’t need to worry about anything. You just need a little food and little water. Although you don’t want anything people still come and bring you something. Like American Indians brought me a whole deer and said “Eat!” and I said “Oh no I can’t eat all that. Give me just one leg please.” So one leg I eat little by little all winter, hanging in my cave. It’s so good feeling, really great vibration. There’s nothing artificial, no human activities, so I think it’s the best place to meditate. Just to be there already you are meditating! So my inner self and outer activities are completely one. If you are keeping your inner self in good shape it goes to the outside too. Good combination.

Shi Jing: Do you sometimes get frightened if you don’t see people for a long time.

Nanao: No. The trouble is I forget I am human being. I am an animal, that is all. So I see coyote. I feel they are my brother my sister. So we sing together [Nanao howls] like this! And they come to me very close, they are so excited.

Have you got hermits here?

Shi Jing: No.

Nanao: Well you could be!

Shi Jing: It’s a nice idea.

Nanao: I think so. No allegiance to any big organizations, but hermits, people who are looking for the Dao, to be in harmony with the Dao.

Shi Jing: Are there any hermits living in Japan?

Nanao: No, I’ve never found any but I sometimes visit island to the far south of Japan and stay in caves. I found one good cave there that had many human skulls. I visited there all night long once. I stayed with them, I clean up one by one and listen to their stories. So it goes this way:

Travel Light

Pleasing smell of
Sea urchins and sweet potatoes
Around the burning driftwoods.
Stormy night of spring

In East China sea
On the beach of a tiny island
I find myself
Sitting in a cave
With a hundred human skulls
Who died by the smallpox
Three hundred years ago.

One by one
I listen to their stories
All night long.

As the rosy dawn streaks
One of them mumbles

“To travel light, Nanao
Why don’t you leave your skull here?”

I still carry around. It’s heavy! So take out your skull! (Laughter) It’s very easy. No skull you can be easy. That’s true. So many ideas. So many conceptions.

Shi Jing: So the group that you started in the sixties, The Tribe, how is it doing?

Nanao: It’s still going. We call it “The Tribe” but it’s not tight, it’s very loose. We started many places, nineteen sixties. Now we still have several places but not like a commune, just like families, several families together. One group is more like Hindu, another is Zen Buddhist, there’s another group has no religion at all, they are carpenters, artists, musicians. The musician Kitaro is one of our group. He has become suddenly famous. Many people have come from our circle – photographers, artists. New spiritual energy growing up.

Shi Jing: You’re quite active and passionate about ecological issues.

Nanao: Yes, sure it’s good question because for me water and forest are all part of myself. I belong to this stuff. That is my understanding so I am not especially an environmentalist. Like coral reef. They want to build an airport on coral reef. That’s incredible for me so I just say “No!” And my friends have helped me to stop this: Allen Ginsberg, Gary Snyder, Michael McClure and many others.

Our project now is the Nagara river. It’s one hundred and sixty kilometres long with no dam. Very unusual for Japan. Japanese rivers mean many, many dams – for electricity, for flood control, for agricultural use. But only this river has no dam. Children still swim in the river. That’s unusual in Japan because most children go to pools. Never go to river. My idea is don’t go to pools, swim in river, swim in lake, swim in ocean with fish! And now government is trying to build a huge dam. It still has good water and many fish going down to the ocean and come back to the river, all of them like moving, but if they build dam, no more and the whole river will die.

So I am working to save this river now and I will go back at the end of this month and walk the whole river, one hundred and sixty kilometres for ten days, with a group of many American, European, Australian people. Many people join me.

Shi Jing: This understanding that you have, did you always feel that way or has it evolved through the life that you’ve lived?

Nanao: I just see that everybody is just a part of nature. You are completely a universal being, not an individual being. The question is “Who am I? What am I doing?” So you study and meditate and you learn in many different ways and slowly you find yourself. Slowly you get back to your original nature. There is no humankind. It’s an illusion! Can you hold a humankind? It’s impossible. I think we should start with just beings, no humankind, no English or British. It’s nonsense. We are just all human beings and at the same time we are related to the stone age and to the future. At the same time we are related to fish, birds, trees, insects, stars. So wide open. Don’t separate human beings, English or Japanese people. Just drop it! I don’t like to be stuck at one point attach to a label. Maybe I feel not so good. I don’t want to be something – that takes away my freedom.

Shi Jing: Like your poem “Break the Mirror”.

Nanao: Yes. I have been in Australia two times and I stayed one night at University of Australia in Canberra. The hotel had such a big room, I couldn’t believe my eyes, and in the morning I saw huge mirror there. I was so shocked, which gave me “Break the Mirror.”

Break the Mirror

In the morning
After taking cold shower
—What a mistake—
I look at the mirror.

There, a funny guy,
Grey hair, white beard, wrinkled skin,
—What a pity—
Poor, dirty, old man!
He is not me, absolutely not.

Land and life
Fishing in the ocean
Sleeping in the desert with stars
Building a shelter in the mountains
Farming the ancient way
Singing with coyotes
Singing against nuclear war—
I’ll never be tired of life.
Now I’m seventeen years old,
Very charming young man.

I sit down quietly in lotus position,
Meditating, meditating for nothing.
Suddenly a voice comes to me:

“To stay young,
To save the world,
Break the mirror.”

While I was in Australia I was asked to go to Tasmania by an environmental group because a big Japanese paper company was cutting down Tasmanian forests. They asked me come and see the situation so I went there to talk. Now good news comes back from the corporation. They have stopped cutting Tasmanian wood. So just go and make noise. It’s true.

Shi Jing: In Japan have you had much success in stopping the deforestation?

Nanao: Yes. I’ve tried so many years but Japanese government so stubborn. Terrible people! It’s true. Japan’s future is very dark. So sometimes we are talking this way: we need big earthquake or big volcanic eruption then Tokyo completely finished. Then maybe new energy, new spirit coming up. Right now terrible. Tokyo city government want to make much bigger Tokyo.

See, already almost twenty millions around greater Tokyo and they want to build thirty millions greater Tokyo. That’s crazy! Too much now already and so crowded Japan and from southern China many border people coming to escape because if you go to Japan, rich country, you can have job, you can be rich man, rich people. It’s an illusion, all illusion.

Shi Jing: Are there islands and places where people could move out into nature more if they wanted to?

Nanao: Yeah and probably this way. Better don’t read newspaper. That’s true because it’s nonsense. Mostly advertisement, you are paying for advertisement. Alright. So the important news comes to you. Not to depend on big business. Live a humble, simple life. Then we don’t need so much money. We can live more peacefully. I had so many experience like communal life in Japan and in United States.

Do you know about Lama Foundation in New Mexico? It’s a very experimental commune. Many kind of religion or groups together and living very high country – 9000 feet high. Growing their own vegetables, making honey – but sometimes bear come to attack! And there are some other religious communes – Sufi people, Zen people – many in North America, I don’t know here.

Shi Jing: It’s not so big here.

Nanao: I still have hope.

Shi Jing: What advice would you give to people who want to find a better way?

Nanao: Well you have eyes! Sure why not? You have legs. Yes, it’s a good poem I have here:

Just Enough

Soil for legs
Axe for hands
Flower for eyes
Bird for ears
Mushroom for nose
Smile for mouth
Songs for lungs
Sweat for skin
Wind for mind
Just enough

Mushroom for nose: One of my friends is over eighty years old, he is almost blind, but he has a very sharp nose for mushrooms. In Autumn I walk with him sometimes in mountains and he stops and says “Nanao. Go to the right, ten meters. There must be amonita muscaria.” It’s true! And “Go to left, twenty meters. There is psilocybin.” So he can find mushrooms by his nose. Very good!

This poem “Just Enough” one Chinese poet translated it into Chinese but he was too intellectual so he used many words but my English is so simple, ‘Soil for legs’ but he couldn’t make it, he need many words.

Shi Jing: When you were in Australia staying with the aborigines did they talk about the “Dreamtime”?

Nanao: They didn’t talk much at all. They just smiled! And we kill kangaroo or goanna and we eat together. They don’t talk, they are just there. Good feeling. And specially one painter. He was maybe over fifty. His smile was so gorgeous. I never seen such a gorgeous smile! So no need to ask any questions. Just to be with them. Eating. You know how to cook kangaroo? It’s so simple. No more boomerang because white people gave them the rifle. So they just kill with the rifle and make little hole here, underneath the bellybutton. One of the old old men is very clever. He can slowly take out every intestine. They never eat intestine, just throw away then make fire and clean the hair off first and bury it underneath the ash and light one more big fire on top. They start singing and dancing, maybe two hours, and later dig it out and an elder of the tribe cuts a small piece of meat and gives it to everybody and without anything. No pepper, no salt, no soy sauce, no butter, just eat and I found very tasty. So we are using too much stuff. After that I have very different way to eat. Like boiled egg: no more using salt because just eat and you feel salt. Already there. We are using too much everything. So they’re really simple life and so friendly. No doubt. So I stayed with them three weeks in desert. So they never talk about dream-time but they are still in dream-time and we are dream-time too. Everybody has a dream.

Shi Jing: Many people here are brought up in the city and have never killed anything, never really harvested anything.

Nanao: I think this way: If you can’t kill it, don’t eat it! That’s one way. If you kill animal, fish, you must see pain. Or in my case I was many years in southern island in Japan. I started with Gary Snyder a small commune there. It’s coral reef island and active volcano. That’s great spot ok, and typhoon, wonderful place! It’s good coral reef, diving and with handmade spear gun to kill fish. We meet big fish like this [laughter] and sometime small fish like this. In my mind I ask them “May I kill you? Can you become part of my body?” Maybe yes, maybe no. So can you see the fishes face and still kill it? This is reality. If I kill animal I feel real connection with it but if you go to supermarket and buy a joint of meat, you don’t see animal. It’s disconnected, so no taste. If you kill by yourself or your friend kills it, it has real taste. So this is one way to think. If you can’t kill it, don’t eat it. Maybe very hard here.

Why don’t you start farming? It’s so easy and so joyful and you can see so many things. You are more sensitive to weather. You are more sensitive to the soil. You are more sensitive to the whole economy. You can learn so many things. Just a small patch is enough. Try it! In Japan my friends all have at least a small patch for vegetables. You don’t need a big space. And in Japan many people are doing weaving, dying and making their own shirts. Some are carpenters making tables and chairs, or potters making very practical things. I have a German friend. He came to Japan five years ago just as a tourist and he saw Japanese umbrellas which are made of bamboo and paper and he was very surprised. So he decided to learn how to make them. First he had to learn learning how to make the paper, then how to use persimmon oil, covering it many times, then it is very strong and completely water resistance. He now makes really great Japanese style umbrellas after only five years.

And we must think, when did we start using toilet paper? Because this is a new way of using paper. Even in the fifties I found in the Japanese mountain villages they’re still not using toilet paper. They are using rice straw made like rope and sliding on the rope to clean up. Or using cut bamboo, very sharp way to clean up – shoop, shoop! And this is then good for starting fire. And in northern Japan we need a lot of firewood. It sometimes gets to thirty or forty below zero!

Firewood

Looking for firewood in snowy mountains

Carrying back firewood
Splitting firewood
Listening to burning wood
Watching for dancing flame

So joyous
You forget yourself
You forget a serious appointment
You become a piece of firewood

Warming up
Flaming up
Singing up
Dancing up

You become ash.

Wisdom

As the blooming cherry flowers
Withered away yesterday
Everything in the world
Fades away
Someday and forever.

And today again
You cross the mountains of living
Carrying false dreams
Quite seriously.

(from Iroba- ancient Japanese alphabetic song)

The poems in this article are taken from two books by Nanao Sakaki:
Break the Mirror
Let’s Eat Stars
both now published by
Blackberry Books, 617 East Neck Road, Nobleboro, Maine, 04555 USA. chimfarm@gwi.net

Additional further reading

Nanao or Never: Nanao Sakaki Walks Earth A edited by Gary Lawless – A collection of writings about Nanao written by his many friends around the world
Inch by Inch: 45 Haiku by Issa translated by Nanao Sakaki
Road to Heaven: Encounters with Chinese Hermits by Bill Porter
The Collected Songs of Cold Mountain by Red Pine